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Originally posted by XIIthMan:
Contributor,

BQ et al., I am a relative newcomer, 2001. I did not come here to change anything, there is a reason we moved to Wimberley. I'm just pointing out that attitudes change over time regarding the dreaded "E" word. Remember when folks thought it was OK to pour motor oil down the drain?

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I agree with you on some points, but a lot ot the people who thought it was OK to pour motor oil down the drain still do. My point is that societal change takes new growth. My attitude toward the environment, racial issues, politics, and many other things is completely different than my father's. He lived his whole life with the same attitudes, prejudices, and general outlook. As long as he was alive, our views cancelled each other out. He's passed on, so my side is now one up. The long time Wimberley folks who endorse brush burning on any scale, don't give a hoot about the golden cheeked warbler or draining oil onto the ground, and they will take this to their graves. Not only will they not change, they will resent anyone who tries to force them to change. They won't even consider more environmentally friendly options.

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Originally posted by BQ:
I agree with you on some points, but a lot ot the people who thought it was OK to pour motor oil down the drain still do. My point is that societal change takes new growth. My attitude toward the environment, racial issues, politics, and many other things is completely different than my father's. He lived his whole life with the same attitudes, prejudices, and general outlook. As long as he was alive, our views cancelled each other out. He's passed on, so my side is now one up. The long time Wimberley folks who endorse brush burning on any scale, don't give a hoot about the golden cheeked warbler or draining oil onto the ground, and they will take this to their graves. Not only will they not change, they will resent anyone who tries to force them to change. They won't even consider more environmentally friendly options.

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Originally posted by XIIthMan:
Contributor,

I posted a reply last night which does not show up so here goes again. First and foremost, I would hate to see the inside of your chimney ar taste your cedar-sooted brisket because I have not seen large quantities of oaks being cleared and burned in place. The majority are cedars.

Secondly, if you are going to quote someone, you should actually read what they wrote. I indicated that the large-scale developers and government entities should try to use chipping/mulching. Your tangent on BBQ, NIMBY, and deer is a very nice strawman.

BQ et al., I am a relative newcomer, 2001. I did not come here to change anything, there is a reason we moved to Wimberley. I'm just pointing out that attitudes change over time regarding the dreaded "E" word. Remember when folks thought it was OK to pour motor oil down the drain?

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You should read what I wrote. If it is good for the goose, then it is good for the gander. If it is bad for governemental and private entities to burn, then it is just as bad for thousands of individuals to burn.

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Originally posted by contributor:

Those are fairly dramatic generalizations combined with sterotyping. So the dumb country hicks need to be 're-educated' or 're-indoctrinated'. It was the old-timers who preserved the Wimberley valley before the 'enlightened ex-urbanites' with their latest issue of Mother Earth News and wads of cash sliced and diced the valley into ranchette sized parcels.

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I've been a Wimberley regular since 1968, I know every one of the folks about which I am speaking, and my statement contains no generalizations or stereotyping. It's fact. With few exceptions these people will not adopt environmentally friendly practices for purely environmental reasons. They may use them because they're practical or because that's the way they've always done things, but they will not do them because someone tells them it's good for the environment.

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Originally posted by BQ:
I've been a Wimberley regular since 1968, I know every one of the folks about which I am speaking, and my statement contains no generalizations or stereotyping. It's fact. With few exceptions these people will not adopt environmentally friendly practices for purely environmental reasons. They may use them because they're practical or because that's the way they've always done things, but they will not do them because someone tells them it's good for the environment.

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I know those same people, so I must ask, "Were the old-timers being practical and sacrificing the environment, or do they simply know more than an 'enlightened ex-urbanite' about how this local environment operates?". If they were wrong, then how did this valley maintain its integrity and beauty prior to the 'slice and dice' of ranchettes?

Chipping a few cedars provides mulch. Shredding and chipping acres of cedars provides toxic waste that poisons the forage wildlife depend on. I used a small part of the 81 cubic yards of cedar chippings generated from the 3/4 acre I had cleared as a natural herbicide. While the grass may grow through the cedar, wildlife doesn't live off of grass. Horses and cattle do. Deer will consume young grass shoots in the spring. During any other season, deer eating grass, tree bark, or the woody part of tree branches is a sign of distress and low food supply.

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Chipping adds several hundred dollars per day to land clearing. And there are probably less than 5 diesel powered chippers available from rental businesses within Hays county. Diesel powered chippers are the only machines that can handle cedar for a full day without over-heating or breaking down.

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Question: Of those concerned about this issue, during your 6-12 months as a developer, how many used chipping/mulching to clear their land for development by their selected home builder? Will I be the only one to raise their hand? Or did you just allow your home builder to bulldoze the area clear, shove it into a pile, and throw a match on it? If so, was it because of cost or time issues? After all, interim financing on new home construction gets expensive. It takes a crew of five workers to run a chipper effectively - 2 cutting trees down to man-sized pieces, and 3 dragging and feeding the chipper. Thats about $50/hour to operate the chipper, plus $200-$250 daily rental. Also, a dump truck is needed to move the chippings (most of my chippings - 81 cubic yards from 1 acre - went to the neighbors at their request) Kinda expensive, but even after all that, you're left with stumps that have to be cleared by a tractor.

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Originally posted by XIIthMan:
Contributor,
Both of these quotes would be the reason government entities and large developers would be the primary users. You may also want to back off the stereotype and generalization accusations. I believe you've used "enlightened ex-urbanites", "austin-tatious", and Mother Earth -reading to describe anyone who may have the gall to dis agree with you. I'm done here. You keep arguing and let us know how it turns out.

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Nobody is born knowing everything and learning new facts is a part of every well-lived life. Of course smoke in the lungs is bad. Fires that get out of control are also almost always started by individuals with campfires and trash burning piles. No, "old-timers" didn't always have all the facts and for goshsake, wasn't it a different world "back then"? Defending old ways because they're old sometimes continues the destruction.

If you want really "old-timers" consider the native Americans point of view. Their emphasis on balance and view of the land itself as a living organism (which science is proving correct - more of that "education") allowed them to live in an astonishingly bounteous harmony with nature for thousands of years.

So, now you'll admit that grass DOES grow in mulch, thank you for clearing up your earlier misinformation, let's clear up your newer one now.

No one recommends mulching acres upon acres without leaving stands of cedars, oaks, other beneficial flora. Of course it would be a poor choice to level acres and acres without leaving beneficial greenery, heck, that's true no matter what method you use. Truly the best method for the soil, the environment, the animals, and the human is to find a balance, which mulching most certainly can do.

You're making it sound like the recommendation is to raze down entire forests, I never heard that here or anywhere that mulching was mentioned. However, developers DO this and gosh, they plan on covering the area with roads or big buildings anyway, so let's talk about how beneficial that is for the bugs and other native animals. So, yeah, I might recommend acres mulched if you are only going to build a road on it anyway, what good is concrete for a bug or other animal anyway, why not go ahead and mulch in that circumstance?

For my final and last time, I never saw anyone say that the old timer or any other small time landowner should not burn, the initial and continued worry was the large area burns seen recently, NOT from millions of backyard burns but from HUGE commercial ones.

Do *I* think that mulching is the best option? Yes, I do, and this opinion comes with much research. Do I wish everyone would use options that did not include burning, yes I do because I believe they are superior in all ways, for both small landowners and commercial projects. But that does not equate to me saying that oldtimers or backyard burners should be banned from burning.

Now, I'd actually enjoy a reasonable and educated discussion on beneficial burning. Large and high heat burn piles confined to one area are not beneficial to the soil. Burning can be very helpful but not the way it is done around here. When an area has been cleared with dozers (pulling up rocks in large quantities) and then burned, that soil has not benefitted in any way, the best thing it can grow is rocks.

I had to edit in another comment, about the deer. I find it fascinating that you would choose one simple land management technique to blame on the deer not having enough food. Are you actually stating that mulch on the ground is the reason deer are seen eating bark? Are you forgetting the fact that deer are severely overpopulated, overfed by humans-both corn and in tasty landscaping-(therefore losing their foraging habits), underhunted, and have lost their habitat to houses? Seems quite a stretch to me to think that anything about the deer can be blamed on any one clearing method to me.

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Originally posted by contributor:

Chipping a few cedars provides mulch. Shredding and chipping acres of cedars provides toxic waste that poisons the forage wildlife depend on. I used a small part of the 81 cubic yards of cedar chippings generated from the 3/4 acre I had cleared as a natural herbicide. While the grass may grow through the cedar, wildlife doesn't live off of grass. Horses and cattle do. Deer will consume young grass shoots in the spring. During any other season, deer eating grass, tree bark, or the woody part of tree branches is a sign of distress and low food supply.

It could be that old-time residents accepted the momentary annoyance of burning because they knew that it is more environmentally friendly than any other method.

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Better yet, it looks like there's enough cut cedar to keep the burning going for several more days. While I think I generally support some small-scale responsible burning, I realize now that I'm not in favor of someone clearing 140 acres of cedar and being allowed to burn virtually at will.

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Originally posted by Mr Chievous:
Hope everyone is enjoying the thick continuous smoke plume generated by the property previously proposed for the new high school. As far as I can tell, a good part of the valley should be getting a taste of it and if you live down-wind, so much for leaving the windows open...

Better yet, it looks like there's enough cut cedar to keep the burning going for several more days. While I think I generally support some small-scale responsible burning, I realize now that I'm not in favor of someone clearing 140 acres of cedar and being allowed to burn virtually at will.

Hopin' for norther to blow through.

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